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 Tank, uncrushability macro

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darrenb

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PostSubject: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 16th 2008, 22:04

When your tanking for a party, you want to be as hard a target to hit as possible. Defense is good, it weakens the blow, cap is 490 (unless u have a talent tree bonus to make your defense higher, this come from +defense on gear) basically at 490, its virtually impossible for a crit to be inflicted on you.

But uncrushability, adds up your dodge, parry and block stats and gives a percentage. This gives a total that if u meet, it will be impossible for a boss in instance or raid to hit you with a 'crushing blow' which would cause serious trouble for healer or total wipe.

use macro below for a score.

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance() + GetParryChance() +5+(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL) + 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)
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Shibi

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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 07:28

Like I thought about what you said yesterday, I'm quite sure tanking kara with 165 spelldamage is impossible if you want to old aggro from epic geared dpsers.

Holy Damage
Looking at the numbers it seems that 250 Holy Damage is very important for threat. However, you can't ignore your weapon damage either. Your bread and butter is Seal of Righteousness. This takes Main Hand Weapon Speed, Main Hand Top End and Main Hand Bottom End damage into consideration while determining its damage. Unfortunately there aren't any good Paladin Tanking weapons that have both Holy Damage and DPS on them. However, taking a 41DPS weapon with lots of spell damage is a better trade-off, as it allows you to fill your other slots with tanking gear.


PS: since you and Maybell plan to go healing on their druids and cut the herbs under my feet, I'm gonna start working on a tanking set. Pfuh.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 08:29

Thanks for that snippet of info shibs, btw please do stay healing on that pala, your gears minted on it. ou could maybe do us a DK tank, would be a good experiment and still retain huge dps. cyclops

My unsolvable mystery of spell damage for pala tank goes amiss, for now im going to try raise it from 640 to closer to 800 unbuffed and see any difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 09:56

From what I read, DK tanking is quite weird :p but I'll see what I do. Anyhow they're talking about allowing dual specs. So you can switch between 2 premade specs for free as much as you want... and I want to try that tanking thingy for once... so you can play your druid guy. I just don't want to end up like in Legion with healers popping out of nowhere joining all the runs filling the healer spot before I log on or when I am unable to join because I have to eat. and yes, that did happen a lot.

By the way:

Quote :


* 7. Re: Crushing Blows, whats the plan? 07/30/2008 07:53:03 AM PDT

Crushing blows used to apply to mobs 3 levels above you, which included most bosses. The change was to make them apply to mobs 4 levels above you. If you are running an instance of the appropriate level, you will not be crushed.

Crushing blows originally served a dual-purpose: they discouraged you from attacking mobs much higher level than you, and they made bosses more challenging. Now they only fulfill the first role. We have plenty of other knobs to make bosses more challenging that feel less random.
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Lahatiel
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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 10:11

Glad to see you two exchanging posts on here, some of that content was new to me.... esp never having rolled a Pala and even more so 'cos I am still a baby tank.

tbh, the more healers 'n tanks we have in the guild, the better. I imagine that we are a million miles away from being a raiding guild, but the instance challenges are always interesting.

looking at the macro above, I can see that I have even further to go with regards to not just defence score, being crit immune, but now crushability (is that even a word?) .... i scored a miserable 47.9 using that macro. I can see a few runs through instances in the near future in the hunt for better gear.

Based on the above posts, can either of u suggest an imba score needed for healer, tank, dps'rs etc for OL & Northrend runs. Always nice to have a magic number to aim at. The reason I ask is simple, in a previous guild & on a previous forum we had a thread listing imba scores and the requirements (based on Kara initially, then ZA) This is what ppl used as a measure for what they should aim at. Considering the number of ppl still new to the game and also since all of us are "new" to the patch changes... if either of u come up with some viable numbers to aim for ....

ie spell dmg for a Lock, mage, Spriest

Then I could start a similar imba thread and list the "want-to-run-instance" people in there and they would then have a magic imba number to aim at.

Just a suggestion, but am really busy at work today so I don't have the opportunity to go scouring the net & crunching numbers to work out what numbers we should aim at.

If either of you get a chance, or think its a good idea... then we can start the thread between us and list what we think toons should aim for in gear, spec, scores....
Not everyone will agree and ppl are more than entitled to develop their own toon the way they want, but if we based it on game mechanics and the way WoW works its maths, then what we list is what will benefit ppl most both in solo play & instance runs as a team.

Or....this could just be the ramblings of an old man on his coffee break!!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 10:21

So whats this got to do with pvp Question Question Question

lol!

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Shibi

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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 10:43

Before reading: you will notice that the message is fairly long. If you're short on time or you don't want to know everything about it, just skip. The last part is a shorter version.

I think it all depend on the group you are with. I have seen people with only green gear do wonderfull things in instances, while I have seen also (and much more often) full epic people turning the instance into a complete mess.

In PvE, it's about skills and teamwork. Ofcourse, it's about gear aswell, but that is less important. If your tank and/or your healer have decent gear (that is: from the level range of the instance you're attempting) and they know what they're doing (know tactics and such, do their job), you should manage the instance you're trying without wipes. That is, for outlands.

Northrend is more or less the same, BUT: like we saw when TBC came out, the epics from Azeroth could hardly match the greens from outlands. I think this time it is the same: the epics we struggled to gather aren't worth much in the new expansion, and the green ones even less... so directly attempting an instance without questing first is a bad idea. The first quests you do in northrend will give you pretty decent gear, try joining instances with the guild with better geared members. Tanks will have more trouble to gear up, but it should be doable with an good healer (don't look at me) and slightly overgeared dpsers.

Are there magical numbers? I don't think so. If the tank is making a mess, I can end up oom even in hellfire instances. As long as your gear follows your leveling, you should be able to make it in your level instances.


For raiding and higher end dps in general it's another story. There raw dps becomes less important and an extra factor comes into play, the hit rating (which makes you miss less). At a certain point you will become hit capped, meaning you will not miss anymore (at 99% that is). This cap varies for all classes, being:

Quote :
All melee

* Dual-wield auto-attack: 442 hit rating
* Special attack or Single-wield auto-attack: 142 hit rating

Paladins

* 142 hit rating
* Heroic Presence (Draenei racial ability): 126 hit rating

Rogues

* Dual-wield auto-attack, with 5/5 Precision (Rogue talent): 363 hit rating
* Special attack, with 5/5 Precision (Rogue talent): 64 hit rating

Shaman

* Dual-wield auto-attack
o With 3/3 Dual Wield Specialization: 347 hit rating
* Dual-wield special attack
o With 3/3 Dual Wield Specialization: 47 hit rating
* Single-wield auto-attack / special attack
o 142 hit rating (Dual Wield Specialization does not affect single wield attacks)

Please note: When using dual Windfury, special attacks (Stormstrike and Windfury procs) should account for at least 30% of a Shaman's damage. Since this is hit capped from talents alone, hit rating is less valuable than stats which apply to all damage, such as crit rating, expertise rating and AP. There are raiding Shaman putting out extremely high DPS with hit chances as low as 14%.
Warriors

* Dual-wield auto-attack, with 3/3 Precision (Warrior talent): 395 hit rating
* Special attack or Single-wield auto-attack: 142 hit rating

Hunters

* Special attack or ranged auto-attack, base 142 hit rating (9%)
* Special attack or ranged auto-attack, with 3/3 Focused Aim: 95 hit rating

When raiding remember to take in account:

* The presence of a balance druid with 3/3 in Improved Faerie Fire (Balance) in your raid. This ability gives +3% chance to hit with physical attacks thus enabling you to swap 47.31 points of hit rating for more useful stats.

For tanks:
Quote :
* Critical Hit immunity for a level 70 player against a raid boss occurs at 490 Defense and requires a defense skill of 140 from gear to achieve.
* Critical Hit immunity for a level 70 player against a raid boss can also be achieved by a Resilience of 5.6% and requires a resilience rating of 220.64 to achieve.
* The critical hit % reduction from Defense and Resilience % may be combined to reduce the chance of being critically hit by a raid boss by 5.6% making the player immune to critical hits.

Longer explaination:
When an equal level mob is attacking a player, the mob has a 5% chance to critically strike the player. For every level beyond the player, there is an additional 0.2% chance for the mob to critically strike the player. Therefore a level 73 mob (a raid boss) attacking a level 70 player has a 5% + (3 x 0.2%) = 5.6% chance to critically strike the player. A player in the role of a tank for a raid boss must lower his or her chance of being critically struck by 5.6% to avoid the possibility of taking 2x the damage from a single hit. This is where gear bonuses that augment resilience and defense are important.

Each point of defense beyond the player's base reduces the chance to be critically struck by 0.04%. Therefore, to become immune to critical hits dealt from a mob 3 levels higher, a player must have 5.6% / (0.04% per defense) = 140 additional points in their defense skill to avoid a critical strike. Therefore a level 70 player with a base defense of 350 must have 350 + 140 = 490 Defense to become immune to critical hits through defense alone.

However, resilience may also be used to lower the chance of being critically struck. There is no base resilience for players. Therefore a level 70 player with no additional defense points, will simply need 5.6% resilience to become immune to critical hits dealt by a raid boss.

For a level 70 player, gear that provides +39.4 resilience rating will yield a 1% resilience. And gear that provides 2.36 defense rating will increase the defense skill by 1. See below for the formula used to derive defense skill from defense rating. See Resilience for a discussion on the formula to calculate % resilience obtained from resilience rating.

Feral druids have Survival of the Fittest, which reduces the inbound crit rate by 6%, making them naturally immune to melee critical hits in PvE.
Check it with this macro. Nos, for you this is in first instance more important then crushing immunity. This is the first thing you need to work to as a tank.

/script /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(Chance to be critted by a boss 3 levels higher:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(5.6-((20+GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL))*.04+GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_CRIT_TAKEN_MELEE)),1,0.5,0)

For healers: no magic numbers. Enough mana. the only way you can see that is to try, if you make it, you're good, if you don't, you need more mana Razz the stronger your heals are the better you will heal, but keep in mind that even if you have a 500k spellpower, it's useless once you ran oom.



And PvP, no offence Sarge, but I always thought about pvp in a not very friendly way. Personally I dislike it, since once you got the gear, and you have the right class, the hardest part is done. Arena might require skills because there you face people of the same rating (cough cough), but battlegrounds doesn't. Get the gear and you will rock, good for when you're bored of playing with others and you want to play for yourself by killing others.







PS, for the people that don't want to read it all:

DPS get hit capped (see above for numbers)
Healers get enough mana (test it)
Tank (exept druids) get at least 490 DR
Druid tanks stack up stamina and dodge as if your life depended on it. (believe me, it does.)

PPS: if you want to see where your character can play decently:
http://be.imba.hu/


Last edited by Shibi on November 17th 2008, 20:17; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 10:49

Thanks Shibi, great post...

Have printed out so I can read it at lunch time.

Will check that macro later this evening if I get a chance.

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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 10:54

Maybe making a new part in the forum only for talking about the specific classes. Something like a library, with 1 topic for each class, where you can post numbers and everything you want, where you can ask things about talents and such? Some wiki-like thing
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PostSubject: Re: Tank, uncrushability macro   November 17th 2008, 12:20

Good idea Shibi, will work on that later. Will make it a main aspect of the forum rather than just a thread.

Vampire Vampire Vampire


Edit:

Updated home page and added a new forum called Library. There are threads in there for each of the playable classes. Hopefully ppl will populate these threads with helpful stuff about each of the class types.

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